Shaenon K. Garrity ([info]shaenon) wrote,
@ 2007-02-20 02:33:00
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Trick Your Woman Into Liking What You Like
I love the John Byrne Forum because it's pure distilled comic-book fanboy nerdiness at its sweatsock-stinkiest. You know those ubiquitous message-board threads where guys post photos of hot women and swap hubba-hubba comments? The Byrne board has one that's been running nonstop since 2004 and is currently 304 pages long. Not 304 posts. 304 pages. It's a jackoff thread longer than One Hundred Years of Solitude. (Byrne himself patrols the thread daily to make sure that no one posts photos of women he thinks have had breast implants, but that's a whole 'nother story.)

It's no surprise that the board also routinely plays host to another of the universal comic-book forum threads, the How To Get Your Girl Into Comics thread. If, like me, you're foolish enough to spend any time in comics fandom at all, you know the thread: one of the regulars has acquired a girlfriend or wife, but he's not content. He can't help thinking how great it would be if he could indoctrinate her into his favorite hobby and indulge in both of his passions at once, like that episode of "Seinfeld" where George tries to eat, screw, and watch TV at the same time. But girls hate comics! Obviously, the solution is to find that one magical uterus-friendly comic that all humans of the female persuasion are genetically programmed to love. And who better to locate the Bestest Comic for Girls than a bunch of nerdy men on the Internet?

The thread currently running on the Byrne board is notable only because it's such a perfect, Platonic example of the genre. It's like a template for all Get Your Girl Into Comics threads on all comic-book forums for all eternity. It's got every one of the essential elements:

1. Sandman, Strangers in Paradise, Fables, and True Story Swear To God are recommended over and over and over. And over.
2. Manga isn't so much as mentioned.
3. Neither are comic strips. Or webcomics, unless you count the print collections of Girl Genius.
4. "Romance" is repeatedly cited as something all women adore. The "romance comics" recommended are frequently just superhero comics that include a love interest, like Frank Miller's run on Daredevil. (That sound you hear is Lea Hernandez's head exploding at the notion of Frank Miller as the perfect female-friendly cartoonist.)
5. Everyone with a girlfriend or wife weighs in, even though none of their girlfriends or wives like comics. Mostly, they just want everyone to know they're not single, either.
6. Someone uses the phrase "chicks dig it," possibly without irony.

And, most essentially...

7. The thread is now two pages long, and no one has thought to ask about the tastes of the woman in question.

You know, like what kind of books or movies or TV shows or off-Broadway musicals she enjoys. Like whether she actually likes romance, or if she's more into mysteries or slapstick comedy or The Da Vinci Code. On the contrary, everyone's been blissfully ignoring what little information the original poster provided. He said only that his wife found Jeff Smith's new Captain Marvel comic too disturbing (huh?), and people are cheerfully recommending that he hand her Hellboy and The Walking Dead.

Basically, you read the John Byrne forum so that you never have to read another comic-book forum ever again. It's all there, pure and uncut.


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[info]sirspamdalot
2007-02-20 11:31 am UTC (link)
I took a break from the Byrne forum because it was depressing me, and after reading your post I feel the need to extend my sabbatical. In a word: thanks.

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[info]lurkerwithout
2007-02-20 11:37 am UTC (link)
I haven't given a female friend comics in a while. But the last time was when I gave one of the women I gamed with my Bone trades after I bought the complete series omnibus. Before that was probably...hmmm...Torso. But that was my LARPing days, when 90% of the women I knew were goths...

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(no subject) - [info]lurkerwithout, 2007-02-20 11:58 am UTC

[info]tedprior
2007-02-20 11:57 am UTC (link)
Ha! My girlfriend reads most of the same comics as I do, but then I don't bother reading shit comics.

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[info]mgrasso
2007-02-20 12:17 pm UTC (link)
I feel dirty just reading a first-order description of those boards. ::shiver::

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(no subject) - [info]canucklehead909, 2007-02-20 01:35 pm UTC

[info]caoilfhionn
2007-02-20 02:05 pm UTC (link)
That explains why I got all of the good comics from women. (Though I did start with Sandman, I admit.) I got all of my webcomic recommendations from guys until I started reading Narbonic, at which point a more satisfying source of recommendations opened up.

The forum is a space where they can talk about women without having to actually talk to women. As if talking around them might somehow give them the answers they crave. Would recommending comics that the guys themselves don't like really solve their perceived problems? Does reading any comic suffice, or are all of these supposedly girl-friendly things hoped to act as a gateway drug to get the women into whatever guy comic currently turns them off?

No, I'm not going to look for myself. Sorry. I need to find zombie photos meeting standards for gender and racial representation.

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(no subject) - [info]shaenon, 2007-02-20 06:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mishalak, 2007-02-20 08:52 pm UTC

[info]nervousystem
2007-02-20 02:05 pm UTC (link)
I've always seen "manga" mentioned as being this monolithic, inpenetrable other thing. Like "you could try manga...women like the manga."

I can imagine some fanboy luring his girlfriend toward the graphic novel section of Barnes and Nobles and shoving her facefirst into the manga shelf and running away...

Or possibly leaving a random manga book under a box held up by a stick on a string (oh, wait, maybe that's the equally-ubiquitous "how-to-get-a-girlfriend" thread?)

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[info]reabhecc
2007-02-20 02:21 pm UTC (link)
blergh. that sounds ... special. particularly the part where Frank Miller is clearly a woman-reader friendly writer. O.o

May I quote the oft used phrase "why is common sense so rare"?

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[info]oakenguy
2007-02-20 02:27 pm UTC (link)
Gahhhhh. I've peeked at the John Byrne board once or twice, and then had to run away to the Gail Simone board until the room stopped spinning.

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[info]hooverdam
2007-02-20 02:38 pm UTC (link)
I've seen this before in "how do I get my girlfriend into sports" and "how do I get my girlfriend into video games." Nobody ever seems to get the unifying answer to all "how do I get my girlfriend into..." and that's stop thinking of your hobby as a gendered thing and start thinking of it as something you like because it fits your particular entertainment needs. It's not "girls like this...," it's "you might like this because you enjoy mysteries/strategy games/true crime/international competitions..."

If the significant other doesn't bite, then it's time to focus on the other thing these questions never seem to grasp, which is that couples are not legally or morally bound to share every single hobby and interest, and if comics/video games/sports are such a big deal to you that you couldn't possibly imagine being with someone who didn't enjoy them, then either you work out a compromise or you split up and find someone who shares your tastes.

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(no subject) - [info]zubkavich, 2007-02-20 05:28 pm UTC

[info]surlyben
2007-02-20 02:43 pm UTC (link)
Frank "all women are ninja-assassin hookers" Miller? Romance comics?! Seriously? We're talking about the guy who put cleavage on the cover of a comic about a cop in Antarctica? I'm afraid I couldn't hear Lea Hernandez's head exploding over the sound of my own head exploding...

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-02-21 03:24 pm UTC
Pearl Harbor sucked. And I love you. - [info]surlyben, 2007-02-21 04:26 pm UTC

[info]arcana_j
2007-02-20 03:03 pm UTC (link)
You so need to repost this on the Women's Work blog. XD

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[info]parke_matru
2007-02-20 03:12 pm UTC (link)
I remember, in an issue of Previews a while back, the solicitations were scheduled to arrive in February. So they had a Valentine's Day section, with reccomendations of what comics your girlfriend/wife would like.

I stopped reading after taking note of the high ratio of Archie titles mentioned.

And, it's probably a freak outlier, but the Fables forum doesn't have that thread. I just went through the entire 'Comics in General' forum and there are a grand total of four reccomendation threads. Two are webcomic-specific, and the other two were started by females(. . . actually, all four were), and were more "What would you reccomend that I, a comics newbie check out" than anything gender-specific.

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[info]ursulav
2007-02-20 03:13 pm UTC (link)
My brain hurts.

Some days you just want to grab people by the throat, shake them vigorously, and then explain, very gently, the great secret that women are almost exactly like real people.

On the other hand, I'd give good money to see a thread based on "How do I get my Mom into comics?"

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(no subject) - [info]hissilliness, 2007-02-20 03:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jeepersjournal, 2007-02-20 03:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]serrana, 2007-02-20 04:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]trishalynn, 2007-02-21 02:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merofi, 2007-02-23 01:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jothra, 2007-02-24 06:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gordonmcalpin, 2007-03-15 04:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]scarfman, 2007-03-16 03:22 am UTC

[info]jeepersjournal
2007-02-20 03:22 pm UTC (link)
It's pretty damned head explodey. It's like a fucked up American version of Densha Otoko/Train Man.
Next Men? "Gee Buster, these mid 1990's John Bryne comics will make any gal swoon!"

The only Frank Miller fan I know is a girl,but she doesn't read it for the Romance. She reads it for the over the top violence and art, because these amuse her. TSTG is cute, but it's more of a men's romance comic, isn't it?

A lot of these comics are comics girls I know like, but if your girlfriend/wife isn't already a geek, these won't make them one.

If you really love her, say it with Yaoi.
*diamond commercial theme song*

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(no subject) - [info]jeepersjournal, 2007-02-20 03:27 pm UTC
a few years ago... - [info]blind_monkey, 2007-02-20 04:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shaenon, 2007-02-20 06:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jeepersjournal, 2007-02-20 06:47 pm UTC

[info]puritybrown
2007-02-20 03:32 pm UTC (link)
It's true what [info]divalea says: message boards are the devil (honourable exception: Girl Wonder, which also happens to be the only comics-focused message board I know of that's female-dominated. Hmm...). The Byrne forum is a particularly pernicious example of this, but even the Comics Journal forums have obnoxious T&A ads in the sidebars and are prone to vicious flamewars over nothing at all; and the regulars at the Engine are so cliquey and pessimistic that I can't read the Engine for more than about five minutes once a month before I get the urge to set something on fire.

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(no subject) - [info]divalea, 2007-02-20 03:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jeepersjournal, 2007-02-20 03:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shaenon, 2007-02-20 06:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jeepersjournal, 2007-02-20 06:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jaderabbit, 2007-02-20 08:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jeepersjournal, 2007-02-20 09:50 pm UTC

[info]divalea
2007-02-20 03:32 pm UTC (link)
Indeed, my head did just explode--from laughing.

Girl Genius is becoming one of those comics that's getting rec's just because it has a female lead and a woman working on it. It's going to edge out Strangers in Paradise for "comic I don't read, but I heard chicks dig it and it's got a girl in it."
(This chick, in fact, gave both of those more than a college try and digs neither, although she liked parts of both.)

John Byrne, bles 'im, is pure and unchanged.

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[info]weds
2007-02-20 03:45 pm UTC (link)
You know, I'm having the very devil of a time getting my fiancé interested in knitting. What kind of yarn should I buy him? I hear guys like sportweight acrylic yarn, because it's made of petrochemicals and has the word "sport" in the name.

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(no subject) - [info]2ce, 2007-02-20 03:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dvandom, 2007-02-20 04:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]acoustic_rob, 2007-02-20 04:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]madmanofprague, 2007-02-20 05:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - mr_cornflake, 2007-02-20 06:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]reinderrocr, 2007-02-20 08:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]divalea, 2007-02-21 12:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]weds, 2007-02-21 12:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jeepersjournal, 2007-02-21 04:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]johnwwells, 2007-02-21 06:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sunless_death, 2007-02-27 10:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]litazia, 2007-03-15 12:09 pm UTC

[info]serrana
2007-02-20 04:25 pm UTC (link)
It's so sweet to see what the boys think we want to read, isn't it?

I still haven't read True Story, Swear To God -- does that mean I have to hand back my Genuine 100% Red-Blooded American Comic-Book-Reading Gurl badge? And how come all the "recommended girly books" are written by, um, boys?

But wait...I can't hand back anything, because my head? Also 'sploded at the thought of Frank Miller, romance cartoonist.

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[info]chanlemur
2007-02-20 05:00 pm UTC (link)
Aha. I knew there was a reason I decided not to often venture out into the wilds of the Internet.

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[info]glych
2007-02-20 05:03 pm UTC (link)
People seem more surprised as to me reading comics than actually drawing them. Weird, huh?

When a gal-friend of mine asked for a recommendation of a good comic for her to read I tried to cater to a genre she liked. She likes mysteries and love stories so I lent her Blacksad. "She was hooked," she said. Now, 4 years later she reads more French comics and Manga than I do. and always finds these weird little avant-garde gems that I would never even know about if it weren't for her.

-glych

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[info]kenshardik
2007-02-20 05:13 pm UTC (link)
I wonder how many of these guys trying to get their "chicks" into comics would be willing to take up any of their SO's hobbies?

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(no subject) - [info]zubkavich, 2007-02-20 05:31 pm UTC

[info]madmanofprague
2007-02-20 05:47 pm UTC (link)
"Let's get closer together by consuming the same media."

...

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(no subject) - mr_cornflake, 2007-02-20 06:12 pm UTC

[info]prodigal
2007-02-20 06:01 pm UTC (link)
born Again wasn't recommended as something romantic, but rather as something to give to a woman who is interested in noir - the "this is romantic" nod was to Sandman Mystery Theatre. And in all fairness to that particular poster, he at least came close to asking what the OP's wife's tastes, by framing each of his recommendatons in terms of "If she likes this genre, try this title."

Too much of a trainwreck quality to too many of the other posters there, though.

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[info]annechen67
2007-02-20 06:33 pm UTC (link)
Ohh, sorry, Mr Byrne, try again later. MUCH later.

See - I found Himself in a comic book shop, and while he introduced me to Cerrebus, I introduced him to Ms.Tree. We were dating about the time issue one of XXXenophile was released(Yes, it was some time ago) The relationship was officially serious when we merged our hold boxes.

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(no subject) - [info]divalea, 2007-02-22 07:48 pm UTC

[info]shaenon
2007-02-20 06:56 pm UTC (link)
I should add that I've been in the position of Clueless Girlfriend myself, because I dated a guy who was heavy into tabletop gaming, the one nerd thing I've never gotten into. I am deeply grateful to this day that he never tried to trick, cajole, or force me into sharing his hobby. He talked about it, because it was a big part of his social life, but he never pushed me to play. (He also never Told Me About His Character, a very smooth move.)

Funny thing is, even though I never joined him at the gaming table, I learned a lot about gaming, had long conversations about his gaming experiences, and even read gaming books. And I attended Origins with him. Twice. Just because it was something he was into, and it was fun to do things with him.

This may be why I pity these unseen girlfriends and wives, even though I'm a huge comic-book nerd myself and have read and enjoyed most of the "girl comics" that get recommended on these threads. Sharing interests is cool. Hobby evangelism is not.

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